Friday, December 26, 2008

different perspectives re holidays

interesting discussion in comments 2 this post:


Anonymous Al said...

Right... Also, been learning a little Chanukah Halacha... it's a strange little holiday, with some rules that are in theory very rigid (lighting time, etc.), and rules that are very strange (restrictions during the candle burning).

The timing of Chanukah with the Winter Solstice is not a coincidence, IMO, and clearly Chazal was co-opting something, trying to control it.

Interesting though, that it survived and thrived, while other holidays have not remained relevant.

Who does ANYTHING for Pesach Sheini (second Pesach, one day one month later, a second chance to offer the Pesach offering)... supposedly some have a custom of eating Matza again, since it's Chag Hamatzot Sheini.

Tu B'av has completely died, though we may see Israel build it into enough of a "Hallmark Holiday" to get some traction.

Yom Hatzmaut and Yom Yerusalayim are way too young to evaluate, but I would guess that their staying power will be minor if appropriate liturgy and customs aren't adapted. There need to be customs that people DO for the holiday to having staying power.

Hence the decline of Shavuot... it's "observed" by Observant Jews, in that they take two days off of work and do the Yom Tov thing, but it's not observed by the non-Frum Jews at all (who do usually observe Chanukah, and practicing ones observe Purim in some regard)... Chazal didn't give it appropriate post-Temple ritual, and the Rabbis of the middle ages got rid of the activities (decorating the Synagogue in branches, which could have extended to the home), combined with the Omer "quasi morning" period that ties Shavuot in with an annoying period to make it less fun.

Hell, look at how Lag B'omer, a minor even characterized with delayed weddings and hair cuts by Ashkenazi Europe, has become a big celebratory event in Israel that is spreading to the US.

Something that the Jewish leadership used to understand: if the people do stuff, they remember it. If they "learn stuff," they forget it. I think that next year for Shavuot, I'm joining a Sephardi friend, they seem to have a real neat night of learning, that seems more fun than sitting around for boring Shiurim and drinking coffee.

I mean, honestly, there is nothing to do on the second day of Shavuot but try to readjust your schedule. Look at how the second day of Shemini Atzeret become important and even enhanced by the addition of Simchat Torah then, in many ways trumping the day with a new meaning.

Thu Dec 25, 08:40:00 AM 2008
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

"Something that the Jewish leadership used to understand: if the people do stuff, they remember it. If they "learn stuff," they forget it."

i think ur absolutely right about shavuot. by comparison 2 sukkot, it's way too low-key--it's hard 2 base a whole celebration around studying torah (which many traditional jews do every day) & eating cheesecake

Thu Dec 25, 12:06:00 PM 2008

this conversation reminded me of an old post by mark/pt:

Friday, June 10, 2005

Shavuot

I think that Shavuot is probably my favorite holiday. Maybe it's the nice weather, or the long daylight hours. Or maybe it's because it's stress-free. I don't have to build a hut and eat with bees, or turn my entire house upside down and abuse my digestive system, or spend hours upon hours on my feet listening to opera. It's a time to spend with family and friends and eat yummy food (mmm....tilapia....). But perhaps it is this lack of specific character that makes the holiday somewhat underrated. Most people, even Jews, have never heard of it. [bold added] Take this conversation I had with my partner today (we'll call him "Bob"):"

(do take that conversation--it's quite amusing)

i agree with Al: Shavuot as currently observed may work 4 the orthodox, but, 4 the most part, it doesn't work 4 the non-orthodox--we need bells & whistles

pls pardon poor typing--2 broken wrists

posted by Shira Salamone at 11:33 AM

11 Comments:

Blogger The Reform Baal Teshuvah said...

Lots to say.

I agree and disagree re: Chanukah. I don't thing חז"ל were far north enough for Solstice to be that big a deal. but I think that as Jews moved farther north, bright lights and carb-heavy foods acquired an appeal they did not have before.

Pesach Sheini is for people who were טמא for the pesach offering which we no longer bring. What WOULD one do for it?

Tu B'Av is getting lots of traction with young Jews. Tu B'Av dances and stuff are becoming more common among young Jews who are engaged with Judaism but not "frum" by a frum persons definition of "frum."

Agreed on Yom ha'atzma'ut and Yom yerushalayim. We are still trying to figure out what these events mean let alone how to mark them.

Shavuot has been taking off around here. Every shul of every denomination has something going on, things that pair dairy food with study. At our shul it's cheesecake and studying something controversial enough to get people in the doors. 5767 was GLBT issues, 5768 was Kabbalistic eschatology.

But doing - hands on - that's important. The passover seder succeeds so well because it is a gemstone of shiur set in a bezel of ritual. Need to figure out how to do that with Shavuot.

Fri Dec 26, 05:03:00 PM 2008  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

"The passover seder succeeds so well because it is a gemstone of shiur set in a bezel of ritual." what a poetic description.

2 b fair 2 mark/pt, maybe 1 reason y i enjoy sukkot is that i've never set up my own sukkah. my parents were content 2 make kiddush in the synagogue's sukkah, &, having lived in apts 4 most of my adult life, i've either eaten in synagogue or restaurant sukkot or, when unable 2 do so, have avoided eating bread & mezonot (other grain products). klutz that i am, i'd need a snap-together pre-fab 2 avoid another trip 2 the ER

Sat Dec 27, 10:29:00 PM 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sigh. Whenever I get hopeful about the future of Judaism, I read stuff like this and get bummed out again.

First: Pesach Sheni is irrelevant. Other than some folks who eat matzah it's not a chag. It was instituted for those people who are tamei.

Second: Chanukah is not based on the Solstice, for two reasons. First, the solstice is always around the 21st of December, depending on one's calendar (gregorian vs. julian). Chanukah can be as early as late November, or as late as the end of December. Also, historically, Chanukah was instituted largely in spite of Chazal, rather than because of them. They were pretty anti-Hasmonean for lots of reasons (not least because the Hasmonean infighting led to Rome taking over Israel). They also disliked the co-opting of both the kingship and the High PRiesthood, neither of which the Hasmoneans were really qualified for. So, Chanukah was a holiday in fact, and Chazal basically had to put its imprimatur on it. Solstice had nothing to do with it. (Now, it had a lot to do with Xmas, but that's a different story.)

Third: Yom ha'Atzma'ut and Yom Yerushalayim aren't accepted as religious holidays, by the non-Orthodox, nor by many Orthodox. While my shul and kids' school do observe them as such, due to their Zionist orientation, it's somewhat hard to justify, IMO.

Fourth: the only way to make Shavuot meaningful is . . . wait for it . . . actually start caring about the Torah! Shavuot has nothing to do with LGBT issues, or kabbalistic eschatology, and everything to do with the giving of the Torah. if you don't care about that, why would you expect anyone to care about the holiday.

I don't agree with your points. The Chagim don't have to be fun and glitzy to be observed. The problem is that non-Ortho Judaism fundamentally rejects the basic premise of many of these holidays, so how can you expect people to care?

Mon Dec 29, 04:31:00 PM 2008  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

"The Chagim don't have to be fun and glitzy to be observed. The problem is that non-Ortho Judaism fundamentally rejects the basic premise of many of these holidays, so how can you expect people to care?"

true, but i'd rather get my fellow & sister non-orthos into a synagogue, study hall, seder, &/or sukkah 4 "glitz" than not at all. don't b so quick 2 write us off. isn't there a saying in rabbinic literature that a person who begins observing a mitzvah 4 what some may consider the wrong reason may eventually come 2 observe it 4 the right 1?

Tue Dec 30, 09:36:00 AM 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You are thinking of b'tokh she'lo lishma, ba lishma. I call that wishful thinking.

The glitzy reasons aren't Judaism. Perhaps they are Judaism-lite, or some other thing. It's simply inauthentic. There's a reason why nearly every single person I know who was observant Conservative became Orthodox (self included). The lack of authenticity and of making it up as you went along bothered us. Saying "we'll remake this holiday to mean this, because the original reason doesn't speak to me" devalues Judaism.

The original justifications for the holidays can work and the holidays be celebrated in a beautiful way without reworking the meaning. You just have to buy into the underlying premise.

There's a story told about Rav Soloveitchik that a woman kept asking him if she could wear a tallit. he said, "try wearing it for a month without tzitzit." She came back after a month and said "Rabbi, this was wonderful, I felt so spiritual." I don't recall his precise rebuttal, but it was something along the lines of "since the four-cornered garment you wore wasn't really a tallit since it didn't have tzitzit, clearly, this was something going on in your own head totally unconnected to the mitzvah."

The mitzvot aren't given for us to find what we perceive, usually erroneously, as our spiritual needs. they are to cultivate a mindset of servitude to God. Of recognizing that He's the boss, (or Boss) not Tony Danza. Or us. (pardon the '80s pop culture reference). We don't wear tallitot to feel spiritual. We do it because He commanded us to do so, in order to remember the mitzvot.

Similarly, making shavuot about something other than the giving of the Torah, is na'arishkeit. Same with the other chagim and minor holidays. Just my two shekalim. Take it for what it's worth.

BTW, since I haven't said it before, refuah shlaimah. I was out of commission for six weeks after shoulder surgery, and being one handed was tough enough, hard to imagine doing it with both hands. Good luck, and heal well.

Tue Dec 30, 11:29:00 AM 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jdub,

Everything you are saying is 100% accepted as true in modern Orthodox Judaism, and also 100% factually inaccurate. The reason observant non-Orthodox Jews are now Orthodox is because the non-Orthodox branches abandoned practice, and nobody (except our blog hostess) wants to be the only observant one in the synagogue, you lack the community. There are plenty of formerly observant/semi-observant Conservative people floating around in Orthodox synagogues that love being amongst other practicing Jews that also don't accept all the theology leaps required to be actually Orthodox.

Every single one of our Chagim has "glitz," and all of it was added. Our Chagim, given by Hashem, are entirely related to the sacrificial system, and events around it, tying events around the agricultural events in the middle east.

Sukkot was about the ingathering of the tribes in Sukkot for the offerings for all the nations, NOT eating chicken soup in Brooklyn. Pesach was about gathering the tribes for the Pascal Sacrifice, not schlepping to the grandparents for gefilte fish. The Omer was a series of offerings after finishing the spring plantings (before Pesach), counting on a good summer Harvest, culminating with an agrarian Holiday of Thanksgiving 7 weeks later.

Every single one of these holidays was given a Rabbinic interpretation, claimed to be connected to Har Sinai via Oral Tradition, to give the Chagim a connection post-Temple when the Oral Law was recorded by the political opponents of the Preists.

Further, these is ZERO commandment to wear a Tallit. There is an obligation to tie Tzitzit to a four cornered garment. Choosing to place a four cornered garment on for prayer is a longstanding tradition, but not a specific mitzvah that we were given.

The minor dates on the holidays marked events that were important to the Jewish people... Pesach Sheni included. Every single one, other than Chanukah and Purim, that was a celebratory holiday, has been abandoned, and every single one that is mourning/fasting related has been retained. To me that speaks more towards the state of affairs in our diaspora than it speaks to the importance.

You wrote, "Yom ha'Atzma'ut and Yom Yerushalayim aren't accepted as religious holidays, by the non-Orthodox, nor by many Orthodox. While my shul and kids' school do observe them as such, due to their Zionist orientation, it's somewhat hard to justify, IMO. "

Of course, those aren't religious, because they are only related to the Jews reclaiming the land... OTOH, we observe Tzom Gedaliah, which is related to the LOSS of Jewish sovereignty over Judah.
Considering the chain of events, Yom Yerusalayim commemorates the exact OPPOSITE even as Tzom Gedaliah, while the latter is retained as a day of mourning, and we can't agree that the former is an equally important day of thanksgiving.

The debate over the Zionist events as Jewish or not is absurd, unless you really are naive enough to believe that when David Hamelech's army was on the march, they were all observant and pious Jews.

Tue Dec 30, 12:07:00 PM 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Al:

Perhaps you misunderstood me, on many levels. I never denied Yom Ha'Atzma'ut or Yom Yerushalayim were Jewish, I questioned the religious significance of them. Yom ha'Atzma'ut celebrates the day Israel declared independence. Where is the hand of God in that? Yom Yerushalayim is much closer to an actual miracle worthy of religious observance.

I don't wholly disagree re: Tzom Gedaliah, except that fast days are fundamentally different than chagim.

Re: the rest: you and I clearly come at it from different angles, and, judging by your disrespectful tone, I don't see that we can have a constructive conversation, so I'll leave it at that.

Tue Dec 30, 01:06:00 PM 2008  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

"You are thinking of b'tokh she'lo lishma, ba lishma. I call that wishful thinking." JDub, you're more of a pessimist than the rabbis of old were.

"making shavuot about something other than the giving of the Torah, is na'arishkeit."

i have 2 agree with Al regarding shavuot, at least. 2 the best of my knowledge--pls correct me if i'm wrong--the torah sheh-bichtav/written torah does not give any history-related reason 4 shavuot. it's strictly a grain-harvest celebration. the idea that the torah was given on shavuot is, 2 the best of my knowledge, rabbinic in origin

Tue Dec 30, 03:43:00 PM 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am a pessimist. True dat.

Where you say that the giving of the Torah is "rabbinic in origin" that's the dividing line between us, I think, because to you that implies that it is a lesser justification for the chag because it wasn't in the text. (A text that many/most/all? in your movement deny is divine to begin with!)

To me, Judaism is rabbinic Judaism. While there are distinctions between rabbinic enactments/interpretations and Tora'itic textual enactments, the distinction is "do I have to bring a korban if i do the wrong thing" and occasionally "can I be makil if I did the wrong thing", not "let's jettison the rabbinic because it's not PC/relevant/spiritually moving to me."

Ultimately, there is a reason why the liberal denominations are shrinking. If you have to constantly change in order to stay relevant, people sense that and are turned off.

Tue Dec 30, 04:15:00 PM 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jdub, my apologies if I sounded disrespectful of you, it wasn't intended as such. However, I think your presumptions in your arguments are flat.

I also think your connecting the loss of the non-Orthodox Ashkenazi populations, particularly in the United States, to a theological problem fails to tease out the underlying trend.

The secular, white, European descended Jews are disappearing for the same reason that secular, white European descended Christians are disappearing, declining birthrates and later ages of first births for women. I've not seen any real evidence that the "protestant" Jews are declining substantially faster than the Protestants that they share neighborhoods, schools, careers, and restaurants with.

The Orthodox Jewish community appears to be following the demographic trends most similarly to Evangelical Christians, also on the up-swing, and are reinforced by the BT movement in apparently similar strength as the "Born Agains" are with the evangelicals.

America has been in a spiritual reawakening as a result of the counter-culture of the 60s that popped up in the 80s and 90s, with an extra boost after 9/11. The Jewish outreach groups are quick to self congratulate themselves, but they appear to be underperforming their Christian analogs, so I'm not sure that they are effective... it seems like they are riding a wave... poorly...

You write, "Yom ha'Atzma'ut celebrates the day Israel declared independence. Where is the hand of God in that? Yom Yerushalayim is much closer to an actual miracle worthy of religious observance."

Honestly, I find the events at least as miraculous as Purim, which we celebrate, more historically verifiable, and with the hand of Gd equally hidden. We celebrate a alleged successful Jewish rebellion, sanctioned by a king, that permitted to Jews to live by defeating there enemies.

In 1948, the Jews, sanctioned by the ruling powers via the United Nations, defeated their enemies that came to kill them, and established Jewish sovereignty.

Further, "I don't wholly disagree re: Tzom Gedaliah, except that fast days are fundamentally different than chagim."

Which I also agreed with, but I believe that the status of fast days as permanent, and minor holidays as fleeting, reflects upon the Jewish leadership of the past 1500 years, which has generally been pessimistic and negative, which has largely contributed to the decline of their support within the broader Jewish world. It is telling that with the emancipation of the Jews, most embraced citizenship and left the rule of the Rabbis, and the returning in significant numbers has only happened recently as the Rabbanim have been stripped of most power, and the most significant source of returning, Chabad, has been while they are following a dead leader in what might be the least intellectual (and Rabbinic) expression of observant Judaism.

In your response to Shira you add, "Where you say that the giving of the Torah is "rabbinic in origin" that's the dividing line between us, I think, because to you that implies that it is a lesser justification for the chag because it wasn't in the text."

No, it didn't, it flows naturally from the conversation. The conversation here was about "glitz" being necessary for successful holidays... with the obvious example of Chanukah, an 8 day festival of minor status being HUGELY relevant amongst Klal Yisrael, and Shavuot, a major frestival, have minor significance amongst Klal Yisrael.

In fact, I would go so far as to suggest that in the non-observant Israeli sphere (which is at least 50% of Israel between traditional and secular Jews, and therefore 20% of the Jewish people), Lag B'omer is a more significant event than Shavuot.

It also can't be just about "fun," because Yom Kippur is HUGELY successful, about on par with Pesach.

If the people do something, it remains popular.. Simchat Torah is relatively popular with non-Orthodox Jews, which is definitely a Rabbinic "bolt on" that works because of a weird quirk in the Halachic rules that dubs, in the Diaspora, Shemini Azteret Sukkot plus the Yom Tov, and the second day, just the Yom Tov. In Israel, Simchat Torah has seemed to subsume Shemini Atzeret in terms of significants on the day.

I stand by my hypothesis, and the failure to give people something to do on Shavuot has contributed to the events lesser status. The modern school calendar likewise runs it toward summer break, which reinforces that. More things for people (i.e. including women and children) for the holiday would help.

A secular Israeli frieds goes to one of her relative's houses and eat an entire meal of cheese related items... they have a significant observation of the Chag, at least that night, that has nothing to do with learning Torah, and it is relevant in their family. Lasagnes and Tilapia meals don't seem to compete with tables of cheesy foods.

Chanukah's explosion in the United States is definitely tied to the solstice... because not only is it about competing with Christmas, it is popular for the same reason Christmas is popular... you need something festive in dreary winters.

Observe a Christmas season in NYC, the deep south, and Florida, and each has a different vibe, which Chanukah following the local vibe. In NYC, it's a festive break from a dreary winter, in the deep south, likely to be a religious time, and in Florida, it tends to be a kind of low key event, filled with tourists and shopping... People don't flood the malls to escape the cold where it isn't cold. Take away a frigid winter, and people are less excited for winter events.

Tue Dec 30, 05:35:00 PM 2008  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

jdub, it wasn't my intention 2 denigrate rabbinic Judaism, but simply 2 point out that, since Shavuot clearly existed as an agricultural holiday b4 the rabbis deemed it a history-related 1, to say that “making Shavuot about something other than the giving of the Torah, is na'arishkeit” is not historically accurate. Shavuot *was,* in its biblical origin, “about something other than the giving of the Torah.” That said, I think the rabbinic reinterpretation was a brilliant idea 4 a post-Temple Judaism

re "glitz," i agree with Al, who said, "It also can't be just about "fun," because Yom Kippur is HUGELY successful, about on par with Pesach.

If the people do something, it remains popular.. I stand by my hypothesis, and the failure to give people something to do on Shavuot has contributed to the events lesser status. . . . More things for people (i.e. including women and children) for the holiday would help."

(re women, same for simchat torah--1 orthodox single woman in my office told me that, since she doesn't live with her parents &, therefore, has neither a husband nor a father 2 watch--the dancing, in many ortho synagogues, and the honor of being called 2 read from the torah scroll in almost all of them, being 4 men only--she sees no reason 2 go to shul. what a shame, that what should b 1 of the most joyous holidays of the yr. makes many woman feel completely excluded 'cause there's nothing special 4 them 2 *do*)

re yom ha-atzmaut, what's the difference between israeli independence day & chanukah? don't both celebrate the defeat of "rabim b'yad m'atim/the many by the few"?

Tue Dec 30, 11:10:00 PM 2008  

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